We're (Still) In Our Improvement Era!

 | In a church of eternal progression, we're always in our improvement era. But today we're talking about THE Improvement Era. That's right, we're back with more crazy articles from the great-grandpa of church magazines. We'll cover the EVILS of playing cards, why tall people should ONLY marry short people, and an unhinged (and almost erotic??) tale about how (or how not to) propose to your gal. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Loud Laughter Podcast. Thanks for joining us today. If you are new with us or you need a refresher, Loud Laughter is a space for individuals all along the Mormon belief spectrum. Whether you are a current member of the church, you've distanced yourself from the church, you're not sure where you stand, or maybe you've never even heard of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, this is the place for you to come and find some laughs. We take a deep dive into Mormon culture and sometimes history like today, and find the funny bits and pieces that stick out to us. So today we are back with part two of our historic church magazine episode all about the improvement era, one of the church's magazines. If you'd like a history and an overview of what that is and lots of laughs, listen to our previous episode. But we're going to dive in today because we have a very interesting insight from one of our listeners. Thank you to our listeners who send us messages and comments and insights. You're always welcome to. Our DMs are always open, or you can email us at loudlaughterpod at gmail.com. But today we have an exciting update from one of our followers that Sophia is going to share with us. Yes. Okay. So last time in our last episode, one of the crazy articles that we read from the improvement era was called The Chemistry of Digestion. And basically it was a doctor, Dr. John Widso, and he just was obsessed with digestion and everything that goes along with it. But we particularly took issue with the fact that he described what pancreatic juice tasted like. And we were wondering how he could possibly know that until one of our listeners informed us that um pipettes, those little things with suction that like scientists use in experiments, they used to be operated with um suction from the mouth. I guess before they invented another way to do it. And so they had to like suck up the sush. So maybe he was performing an experiment with pancreatic juice and he accidentally got a little taste. It's really gross. How could you not if you're doing that? Anyway, let's move on.

unknown 2:21

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

So that was just a little footnote for today. But we really appreciate the footnote because it helps me understand why and it helps me have, I don't think empathy is the right word, but like an understanding of where this man is coming from. Yeah. Uh because we were alarmed to say the least. Yeah. So thank you so much to our listener. We really appreciate your insights. Yes, thank you. Again, our episodes are always, we want them to be an open conversation. So if you ever any thoughts, please get in touch. We love to hear from you. So thank you so much. And without further ado, we are going to dive into part two of the improvement era from 1900 to 1909. Yes. So, same time period we covered last time, the first decade of the 20th century. And like last time, we have more crazy, funny, interesting articles for you guys. I want to start out with one of the little uh jokes that they include in this section called In a Lighter Mood. Um So I'll just read this. It says, A school teacher at Three Rivers asked her pupils the other day who Nero was. The only response came from a little fellow who held up his hand. Arthur, said the teacher, do you know who Nero was? Yes, ma'am, he answered proudly. He's the one we sing about in our Sunday school. The teacher was unable to recall any gospel hymn where Nero was mentioned. What is the song like, Arthur? She asked. Nero my God to thee, was the answer given by the child. Period. And that was from the Improvement Era, September 1904. That's cute. There are so many things that in like church songs that I misheard and thought were different things until I was much older. We are hoping to do an episode later on about kind of those misconceptions that you have as a kid. Yeah. Um, or misunderstandings. But that hymn is so good. It is good. Beautiful. Yes. Thank you so much. Anyway, anyway. Okay. I don't know how to transition away from that, but there it is. Moving on. Moving on. Okay. Um, the next excerpt that we're gonna read is from an article called Cards as an evil by Joseph F. Smith, who was the president of the church at the time. And this is from the improvement era of August 1903. Stella, can you read this excerpt and then we will discuss? I would love to, especially because I took a peek at the opening line and I'm just excited. All right, this is Joseph F. Smith, August 1903. I have been grieved with the knowledge that persistent card playing is gaining an alarming foothold among the people. The Saints have been often warned against the evil in the past. President George Q. Cannon has spoken strongly and written clearly against this immoral habit, and President Snow, also with voice and pen, has set the seal of his condemnation upon it. I wish too to declare against any card playing with all the force and influence at my command, and to place myself on record as being opposed to it in any and all forms and under any and all conditions. I warn the saints, and especially the young people, that it is a dangerous practice, and urge all to leave it alone, repent of the evil, and turn to profitable and healthy pastimes and recreations. So shall we please the Lord, enhance our own enjoyment, and save ourselves and our children from impending sins, at the root of which, like an evil genius, lurks the spirit of cards and gaming. I love how poetic this is. Like it is obviously it's really unhinged, but what beautiful writing. True. Yeah, they uh they did always did have beautiful writings. Yeah. This one um really had a hold on our family, particularly our extended family. This was a huge no-no, and for whatever reason, like playing cards or having face cards at all, we didn't have them growing up. The first time that I played with face cards was I think in college for me. In college. Well, but about but what about the underground games that we would play at family reunions? Yeah, that's true. Okay, describe the underground games. So it all started in a place called Camelot. Camelot, Utah, actually. Yes, which is a rinky-dinky town that we would have family reunions at. It was so fun. We would rent out this campsite that had like multiple cabins, and so each family had like their own cabin, and it was a really fun vibe. There was like one shared room where a bunch of the cousins slept, and someone brought face cards, which are strictly forbidden in our family, um, this side of the family in particular. And so we needed a way to hide what we were doing, and so we were playing poker with what was what were you playing it with? What would we do for the chips? They were puzzle pieces, and we were playing puzzle pieces, that's where it came from. So we're playing Texas Hold'em with puzzle pieces, and we'd call it puzzle cards so that our grandma wouldn't know that we were playing poker and Texas Hold'em with face cards, and that's how we kept it a secret. So then it kind of became like a tradition, um, you know, like keep away from grandma and also let's play Texas Hold'em. So But we call it puzzle cards, but we call it puzzle cards, so they wouldn't. And you bet the puzzle pieces, so those are like the chips. So we weren't actually gambling any money, we were just gambling for puzzle pieces, right? But it was still bad because they were face cards, so like whatever. So yeah, there's this like cultural thing in Mormonism where face cards are like a huge no-no, because there's this idea of the appearance of evil, which I don't know who coined that phrase, but not only should you not do anything evil, you should also never look like you're doing anything evil. So, like, let's say that I want to wear a pair of short shorts, but I know that's not allowed, so I put on tan tights under my short shorts. That's still very bad because even though I'm not showing any skin, it looks like I'm showing skin. Oh, yeah, like those um those fleece tights, I don't have them, but those fleece tights that like look like they're sheer, but they're actually fleece. Those are smart, but like that would be my BYU time. But that might fall under the category of appearance of evil. I'm not saying that with any skin in the game. I don't care what people do, don't care what you wear. But to illustrate it, these are reasons why some things are frowned upon in the church, even if they're not technically wrong or evil. Uh sometimes they can be frowned upon regardless. So that's kind of the category that I put face cards into is an appearance of evil no-no. Yeah. I looked up where appearance of evil comes from. It's actually in the Bible. It's in First Thessalonians 5.22, it says abstain from all appearance of evil. So, but I'm sure there's talks that have used that scripture to describe various evil things that you should not look like you're doing, like using face cards even if you're not gambling. Or going to a club even if you're not drinking. Yeah, stuff like that. Going to Starbucks or a coffee shop, even if you're not getting coffee. Our family. Oh, really? That we weren't allowed to go to Starbucks? Well, remember how we weren't allowed to go into Starbucks? Because our bus stop was at a Starbucks, but we couldn't go inside because we would smell like coffee and then get in trouble. No, I don't remember that. Don't remember that? I was so up in arms about this as a teenager from our high school to our hometown. Oh, really? We weren't allowed to go in there? No, like we would, but then we smelled like coffee and we got in the car. So we stopped going there. I actually do remember that because sometimes we would get like hot chocolate or something there. Wait, that's really funny because I actually went to Starbucks all the time though with my friends, the one that was by our high school. Yeah. You didn't know that? Did you you know there too? I didn't know. I didn't really go there because I can't have dairy, and it was before like there were a lot of vegan options for things, so it was really pointless for me. But um I would get like the coffee-free like Frappuccinos and stuff from Starbucks. I remember that came up in like a family conversation once. Oh, I'm sure it did because I think I really coffee. Yeah, I posted a picture of my eggnog frappuccino on Instagram. Big mistake. Big mistake. That's classic appearance of evil. But I put hashtag eggnog frapp. So true. People should have known I was not drinking coffee. I put it in the hashtag so everyone would know. But I think, yeah, appearance of evil, coffee being the evil. I would do the same thing because I I always had like a little like artsy Instagram, even when I was a kid or like high school, yeah, normal. So I was like a teenager on Instagram, high school, whatever, and I would post pictures, cute pictures of like herbal teas or something, and I would always put in the caption, like, I love herbal tea. So no one would tea. Yeah, so everyone knows coffee. Oh my goodness. So yeah, I am a victim of the appearance of evil. I did my best to work around it, but unfortunately, sometimes sometimes you look evil. It might not have looked like I was drinking black tea and looking evil. Yeah. I got an evil vibe to me. Yeah, I'm just kidding, I really don't. Yeah. The funny thing is like, um, and and we talked about this a bit in your episode about the Temple Square mission, how you guys weren't allowed to carry mugs around. Um, but like anyone who didn't know that you weren't supposed to be drinking coffee wouldn't think that it was bad anyway. No one would care. Not one soul. They wouldn't be like, you're drinking black tea instead of herbal tea? How dare you! Like people wouldn't know. Like, I think I only ran into the tea thing one time. Um, when I actually went to like a tea, what are those things called? Like tea room places, like those cute tea restaurant kind of things. Oh, yeah, like a tea house? Yeah, tea house, that's what it is. Uh, with one of my friends or with a group of my friends, and like I had to get herbal tea. That was the only time where like that even ever came up. So I think most people wouldn't even care at all. But other Mormons care because other Mormons care you might look like you're evil. Yeah. So be mindful of that this week. Yeah. The interesting thing um that I found with this article, and I didn't include the whole article because it was too long, and it basically just was the same thing, but it wasn't just the appearance of evil that Joseph Smith was Joseph F. Smith was concerned with. It was also that card playing could be a waste of time. And I thought that was so interesting because like growing up in our family, it was always just like the appearance of evil, like, don't look like you're gambling. But it was also in this article at this time, it was about wasting time when you should be spending your time on something productive instead of just sitting around playing cards. So that was kind of funny. I mean, like nowadays we have much more uh what's the word? Like I guess frivolous or yeah, even more frivolous than playing cards. No, totally. If I like play cards as friends, I'm like, wow, look at me so awesome in touch with the present moment. Ooh, I know literally like I'm socializing. Oh no. I'm like learning strategies or something. Like I'm actually losing my mind. Speaking of learning strategies, we had a cousin who is a math genius, and you couldn't play card games with him because well, you you could, but you would always lose because he memorized the deck and knew what you were gonna put down before you put it down. So he'd play um Egyptian Rat Slap, which is known by some other names, but you literally could not win Egyptian Rat Slap against him because he knew what card you were gonna put down, and he would like slap it or like or take it, whatever, before you even had a chance because he didn't even have to look. That's true. That's crazy true. And then also with this quote here of course, playing cards leads to worse things such as gambling, which is more of an obvious one, but also alcoholism. So here we have another alcoholism conclusion. So everything leads to a lot of yeah, you're just done for. The hot cocoa leads to alcohol, the cards seems like he would object to drinking hot cocoa and playing cards, which is so funny because how many Mormon households do you know? The that's probably like a family tradition at like Christmas time. Hot cocoa. Drink hot cocoa and play cards. Like it sounds so nice and like wholesome and cozy, but he's like, no, this is a waste of time. It could lead to alcohol. Yeah. So funny. Imagine exposing Joseph F. Smith to Utah soda culture. Oh my gosh, he would have been happy to say about that. I will definitely have multiple conference talks about the evils of soda and soda culture. Honestly, I'm like a little and I don't have an issue, I don't care if people drink soda, but like I think it's funny that that's never been addressed. I do too, honestly. If you think about it, like it's a lot of caffeine that people are drinking, and it's like, yeah, you know, it's kind of a vice. Like, I again, I don't care. I'm glad they don't care, and they're not talking about it, but it is interesting to me that it's such a common thing that it's just part of like Utah slash Mormon culture that's like respected and untouchable a little bit. Yeah, I find this weird, I guess, because um they've definitely gone with the coffee and tea interpretations of the hot drinks, and not with like the caffeine. So I don't know where they decided to draw that line, but whatever. I'm not sure. Drink the soda, be happy that you have the soda, play cards, you can play cards and you can drink soda, but be warned it might lead to alcoholism. So be careful. Yeah, watch out. Next, we have this article that's titled Development and Training of the Child, and this is by Mosiah Hall, who has a lot of acronyms behind his name, so he sounds like a really smart guy. He's a professor of education at Brigham Young College in Logan, Utah, which I did not know there was ever a Brigham Young College in Logan, Utah. So surprise I didn't either. Yeah. So this one is wild. This whole article is kind of crazy. It's pretty ironic. I mean, he does talk about like parenting and stuff like that. But a huge part of his argument is that if you want good kids, you have to like have two good parents, which yes, but his article is more like genetic in its take, which is it's like eugenics kind of vibe. Yes, okay. I was like scared to say that word, but yes, I mean it is what it is. Yeah, so it was kind of giving me that vibe. I'm just gonna read it now and you'll see what I mean. So here's some quotes from it. Parents should also be adapted to each other in disposition and temperament and in physical and spiritual characteristics. The many unhappy marriages, the numerous divorces, the sorrow and heartaches, and multitude of blighted children resulting from improper unions are ever-pressing arguments for the necessity of adaptation. Okay, so yeah, like make sure you marry the right person, that you guys are like a good match for each other. But then he keeps going on to talk about like physical characteristics, how like you should marry someone who's balanced with you in your physical characteristics so that your kids don't end up too extreme. So he says, my if if a thin streak of a man with a little head Okay, why do small men catch so many strays? This is like the third article I found where it's like a small man. Yeah. Why do they have a few more? But this one is talking about a skinny, tall man, okay? They're so mean. They're always like analyzing people's looks, okay? But he says, if a thin streak of a man with a little head perched on seven feet of altitude insists on marrying a woman constructed after the pattern of a knitting needle, should they complain if their darling is built after a plan that involves but one mathematical dimension? How did he come up with this? I don't know. It's like he was roasting like a specific family. This is like a Shakespearean tweet. No, this is like if like Shakespeare had Twitter. Like he was subtwitzing us. Yeah. Yes, what is this? I have no idea. And also, like, what parents are complaining that their kid is like too tall and skinny? Like, if if you, as the parents are tall and thin, you're not gonna be surprised or complain if your kids are also tall and thin. No, like who cares? Who cares? What we're tall and thin, and now our kids are too. I'm mad about this. Like, what? No one would do that. No one cares. Oh my gosh. No, I'm pretty short. My boyfriend is also pretty short. We're gonna have short kids because that's how genetic works, and we're all gonna have a great time and a great life together. This is so weirda. It's so weird. He also, of course, has to mention short and round people. Here we go. Okay, so this is for me. That two people with short altitudes and long diameters should allow fate to unite them for life, is a geometric problem that would stun Newton. I beg your pardon. I beg your pardon. Um, also like the it sounds like he's trying, like he's using this like elaborate and metaphorical language to keep it PC almost. Because he's not like, oh, if two short, fat people have kids. Yeah, that's so true. Even Newton would be confused by whatever. He's like two people with short altitudes and long diameters. He's like making it sound that's what he's saying, but he's wow. Again, we have this poetic writing that is just so deep. So funny. In this case, disrespectful, but yeah. Yeah, and then he makes his like philosophical argument. Nature, it is known, delights in balance, everywhere is seen, a beautiful equilibrium. If a person, therefore, is unbalanced or abnormal, he should see to it that his children do not emphasize this one-sidedness. If the man is unusually tall and thin, his wife should be short and stout. If he is slow and plodding, she should be quick and active. Like, imagine being like, well, stupid, but also like his argument that this would like create congruence somehow is so stupid because if, you know, let's say like there's a quick and active woman, so someone that really likes to be out and about, and she's like a runner or something, and then they marry or are with a person that like doesn't vote. Value any of those things, they'd be a terrible couple, probably. Yeah, exactly. And it would violate his first rule. Exactly. Exactly that you should be compatible. Exactly. Yeah. It doesn't make sense. This part I thought was funny though. Did you read it? Can I read it? Yeah, read it, read it. Who has not smiled to see a big loose-jointed man swinging along with a sweet little moon-faced woman waddling at his side? Me dating in Provo. That's literally my dating experience in Provo. Oh my gosh. I was a little moon-faced woman waddling one time. The story is so funny, but it might like be too much of a diversion. Anyway, so I'm going to do a long story short. Long story short, I was set up on a blind date with someone who I thought that I had met previously, but it was actually a man who's also friends with the family that has the exact same first and last name and family connection as the individual that I had met and consented to going on a date with. So whoa, that's insane. The whole time I think that this one man that I had met, which it it doesn't matter at this point, but like this guy that I had met was like, he was taller than me, but he wasn't like uniquely tall or anything like that. Anyway, so there's a knock on my door, and then this man comes in. My roommate is like, hey, like your date's here. And I was like, Oh, I just need a couple more minutes. Would you mind like chatting with him in the living room while I finish up? And she was like, Absolutely. So the guy comes in the door and I hear a voice that I'd never heard before, and I was like, Oh my gosh, like who is this man? And then she asked him, like, oh, what are you doing for school? And the guy that I thought I was going out with was still in school, but this man I heard him say, Oh, I graduated three years ago. Oh. So at that point, I was like, Okay, so I have no idea who I'm gonna like see when I walk out there. So I walk out there, I'm 4'11, and this man is seven feet tall. No way. And I just looked up at him and he looked down at me, and we were like, uh. So then we go on a date, and I literally couldn't hear him when we were walking side by side. So that's the reason that this comes to mind because he says a big loose-jointed man swinging along with a sweet little moon-faced woman waddling at his side. I was waddling like crazy because I couldn't hear him. And his legs were so long I couldn't keep up. So I'm waddling and we had to stand like three feet apart from each other so that we could even hear one another. That's crazy. Also, this is just like a funny detail, but I hadn't painted my nails like that day because why would I do that? I just didn't have time. So my nails were like chipping and like kind of weird. And also the nails on my right hand tend to grow longer than the ones on my left because I or sorry, wait, opposite. So the nails on my left hand tend to just like be easier to manicure than the ones on my right because I write it by dominant hand and I do a lot of like work with my hands. Yeah. So it was like kind of weird looking. But I was like, you know what? What man that I've gone on a date with has ever noticed the state of my nails has never happened. So even though I was anxious about it, I still went out. Well, during our date, he was like, Why is why are the nails on one of your hands longer than the other one? What? Are you serious? Oh my gosh, okay. No, I hate when that happens. Oh my gosh. I was like, it was so horrible because I try not to like be too obsessed with my appearance, you know, like try not to worry too much about things. So I was like, you know what? I'm not gonna worry about it. Yeah. But it was like a big deal for me to not worry about it before a date, and then I got called up for it. No, that's the worst. Oh, anyway, so that's the story of how I was a sweet little moon-faced woman waddling at the side of a big loose-jointed man. That's hilarious. Oh my gosh. Well, you guys didn't end up together much. We didn't. This guy's dismay. This guy would have been chipping you guys like crazy. Sorry, Mosiah Hall. Perfect equilibrium. He was like, No, you guys were perfect. You would have had the most average kid. Exactly. He just wants people to have average kids. Goodness gracious. He finishes this thought off by saying, It is dangerous, however, to be explicit and to give rules to follow on such subjects. Each case will differ from every other and will require particular consideration. So he just throws that in so no one can come for him for the eugenics, it appears. Yeah. When I read that, I was like, isn't this your entire article? Is like giving rules to follow on this subject? Yeah, like generally. Like, what are you talking about? And then he's like Yeah, he's like, Oh, don't give rules. Yeah, just funny. Before I go to the next long one, I'll do a little palette cleanser with a joke. So back to the in the lighter mood section briefly. Okay, here's a joke. When I marry, said a sweet young girl, I intend to marry an English dude. Are they actually using the word dude? Yeah. Interesting. Okay, I didn't realize that that was from this time period. I didn't either, but you'll see why. Okay. So she says, I intend to marry an English dude. And then her friend says, But suppose you can't get an English dude. And she says, Then a Yankee doodle-doo. Do you get it? What? Then a Yankee doodle-doo. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A Yankee doodle-doo.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Then a Yankee doodle-doo.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

That's why they had to say the word dude, but I don't know how common that term was. Anyway, that's from 1908. The next article is a story written by Susa Young Gates, who was actually a daughter of Brigham Young. And it's from March 1905. It's called Man Proposes. And I had to include this one because it was just so unhinged. Parts of it are like really sexist. Parts of it are just like really like cringe and almost like erotic. Okay. Like I don't know what other words are. I'm so scared. It's like these are just three things that I never ever ever want. What did you say? Sexist? Sexist. Uh, I forgot the other word if I said another word, but sexist and erotic. Oh, okay. And just Mormon, written by Brigham Young's daughter. Oh no. Sexist, erotic, and Mormon? Yes. This is not a great combination. It's terrible. Um we dive right in. So we dive right in. Oh, this is terrible. Let's share it with everyone we possibly can. So literally, that's this entire series. So we're just gonna switch off reading each paragraph. And I've read this, but Stella hasn't. And I also edited it slightly just for clarity and length. But the funny thing is, before the article, the editors included this caveat. They said, asked what the moral of this story is. The author said, It has none. It's just an incident from real life. But since it would not have found space in the era without having a moral in it, it is plain the author is mistaken. The era will be glad to receive suggestions from any young man as to what the moral is. So like I just think that's funny from the editors because they were like, Well, it wouldn't have found space in the era if it didn't have a moral. But I'm like, you're the ones publishing it. So, like, yeah, it's like you guys are the ones that did it, and you you can't call the moral. Neither does the author. So they're like, Well, there's no moral, but trust and believe they wouldn't have put it in here if there's no moral. So you guys should probably find one to like justify our printing of this article. Let us know what it is. If you find a moral, please let us know. Exactly. So they just liked the story so much, they're like, Well, we have to publish it, but like someone please tell us what the moral is so that we can feel good about ourselves that we published it anyway. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay, I'll read the first paragraph. It says the dining room was flooded with the soft sunshine of a September afternoon. Everything was in exquisite order, from the plaster casts and vase on the mantle to the last leaf on the palm, which stood in the sweep of the Western Bay and windows. There reigned order, cleanliness, and peace. Both parlor and dining room were pretty rooms, and the few good rugs scattered about the waxed floors, with a few fine engravings on the pale, cream-tinted walls, gave evidence of taste, means, and some culture. The white-robed, dark-haired girl who stood in the window of the dining room arranging some flame-colored nasturtiums in a glass bowl, was the sweet, living expression of the daintiness about her. Mary, do you expect some company this afternoon? asked her mother, who sat by watching with some sadness the sedued excitement manifested in the girl's actions. Oh, I don't know, mother. Yes, I suppose I do. Either Bert or Harry will come over, I suppose, and maybe both. A little frown gathered on the brow, and a proud expression clouded the beauty of the brown eyes. The mother rocked quietly for a few moments, and then, as the girl was still silent, she said, Mary, do you think you are doing all right? Oh, mother, how can you? Don't you see I'm tormented with the whole thing till life is a burden? And why don't you help me? Why do you make it harder? Well, I'm sure, answered Mrs. Graham, somewhat petulantly. I don't know what I've done to make you fly at me like that. To be sure, I think you ought to decide which of the young men you want and not keep them both hanging on a string. I don't see how it is that my girls have any number of bow bothering about, but we are always having it preached that there are so many girls who cannot get husbands. The look on the good lady's face proclaimed sufficiently the pride she felt in the fact, however much wonderment it might cause her. But there was no trace of felicitation on the pretty features of her daughter, only an anxiety that verged closely on despair. Oh, it's all such a tangle, she cried piteously, while tears which had been filling the dark eyes now flowed over to her cheeks. Both Bert and Harry are model young men, both are returned missionaries and both are gentlemen, and above all, true Latter-day Saints. I'm sure I could love either if I only allowed myself to, but I don't know. I can't find out which is the right one. Well, it's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard in my life. I can't understand you modern girls. You get such exalted notions. When I was a girl, we didn't think about higher education and aesthetic culture. We just went out with our bow, fell in love when Mr. Wright came along, and got married. Yes, I should say so, answered the girl, a gleam of mingled amusement and scorn drying the tears in her eyes. Can I just say what is happening emotionally? Every line has like so many emotions tied to their particular reaction. I'm having such a hard time picturing what I've never I don't think I've ever had scorn dry my tears. And amusement amusement and scorn dry up my tears. But you know what? It is I'm all for descriptive writing. Show, don't tell, you know? Yeah. Um, but I'm really confused. Same. Anyway, you were young ladies at twelve and married and settled down at sixteen. Yes, indeed we were, asserted her mother with some spirit. And we made satisfied, healthy, stay-at-home wives and managed to bring up a whole family of girls like you.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

I have yet to see any great improvement in the homes, the wives, or the babies, which are shown to us nowadays. Not the babies.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

She's thinking. What does she think was gonna happen? I don't know. That's true, answered the girl ruefully. We may be a bit more intellectual than we're our mothers, but I'm sure we are not as intelligent, nor as great. Softened at once by the generous admission of her daughter, Mrs. Graham rose to leave the room, but said as she opened the door, I am sorry for you, Mary, but all I can say, my dear, is what I have always said. Try to do what's right. It looks as though Rose Lewis was also in as great a stew as you are.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Well, yes, only Rose is a different kind of girl. She has a good time and lets the other fellow worry about it.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

I wish I could take things as easy as that. These are some ancient dynamics we're dealing with. Yeah. Hardly had her mother returned ere the doorbell rang, and a young man with a lithe, tall form, a firm, decisive manner, and a clear-cut, keenly intellectual face, which barely escaped being handsome, entered the parlor. Ooh! Ooh! And that's for someone describing you as barely escaping being handsome. I know. Like, why couldn't she just say he was handsome? She's like, he would be handsome. He was just barely not handsome. He's not. He's not quite. I would call you handsome, but you didn't. You're missing like two points. Exactly. This part is so cringe. I'm really afraid. I just saw one word of this paragraph and I'm like terrified. Okay. Mary felt a thrill of strong, powerful vitality which emanated from the close hand clasp. And what with the strain of indecision coupled with several almost sleepless nights, she was shaken to the heart with conflicting emotions. Hang on. Is this a handshake that they're I was just gonna say that?

unknown 35:04

Stop it right now.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

She felt that guy early. She did too. And and might I add, this is a straight interaction. True. Regardless of either of their sexualities, this is a heterosexual handshake that is still emanating this um sexual energy for some reason. I mean, I guess that's all they had. Like you couldn't do anything else other than shake hands. I guess so. Engaged or married. Oh my. Wow. Bert Lawrence walked to the window. After the few words of greeting, and then, as the girl stood several feet away, both of them overwhelmed with a nervous excitement that was much nearer pain than pleasure. He turned abruptly and said, Mary, I want to talk with you alone, may I? She nodded assent. He quickly drew the folding doors together and came to where she had sunk down on the couch, too breathless to do aught but wonder. Mary, dear, he said softly, for with his trained eye and his quick sympathy, he saw the unnerved condition of the girl before him. Having empathy being detected? Like, wow, yes. A man with empathy, my trained eye detected. Emotion detected. Literally, what is this? Okay, so he says, I don't want to annoy you, nor to worry you. I have been very patient, and I am not egotistical in saying that I have waited long on your good pleasure and have borne as much mental stress as a fellow can well bear. You know I love you, dear. No need of saying so. You know it, don't you? The girl before him nodded her head, speechless, and clasped her small, nervous hands a little closer. Not the small nervous hands. This is like this is like Wattpad. No, literally.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

And there's a big man coming over that my mom doesn't like. And my name is Mary, and I'm fighting with my ma.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Yeah. Me picking up pen and paper in third grade. Literally. Well, I think her mom does like them. That's true. That's true. She just wants her to pick one. She doesn't even care which one. She's like, just pick. Get these poor boys out of their misery. Goodness gracious. I have just left things drift until now, but I don't see any use in mincing matters. Harry Thurston, he's a splendid fellow, a much better man than I am, and you will get a husband worthy of you. I have come, Mary, for you to make your final decision. The dark eyes of the girl closed as if in a swift mental spasm. Absolutely no need for that kind of language. Not one thing is warranting that. If there was possible to her distracted mind a thought, it was a dumb descent to his reference to his rival. Just now she had forgotten Harry Thurston, good and noble as he was, and in her present mood, his name jarred on her senses. The trauma of hearing your ex's name? It's not even her ex, it's like the other guy she's seeing. So weird. True, this is so weird. The young man saw the effect of his words, and scarcely understanding the cause, began pacing up and down the room while the girl silently buried her head in the pillows, her whole form shaking with suppressed excitement. So weird. I did not need all that. I just didn't need all that. At last, finding he could get no word of response, he said recklessly, Mary, you may not know it, but you make me feel like a brute. I have suffered so much in the last week that I concluded I could bear it no longer. I intended to come to you and simply tell you that I would step aside without another effort and give Harry the full liberty he so well deserves. But but I can see you are suffering too, and because of my own blundering stupidity, why, Mary Girl? Can't you understand? It's driving me wild. This paragraph is bolded, so I already know it's so cringe. Oh, it's so bad. Oh my gosh. Okay, I'm ready. He stood over her with both his hands clinched, gazing with agonized eyes at the dark tresses he must not touch, at the quivering form which his longing arms must never grasp, and with a stifled gr with a stifled groan, he said hoarsely, I beg of you, Mary, end this. Indeed, you must, you shall. The fine nostrils quivered as if with a final breath of resolve, and the slender, manly form drew to its full height. Ew! Also describing his nostrils as fine. Like we even have to say that he had fine nostrils. Ew. Again, this one is just like it's still well written in a way, but yeah, but I'm also like what? Was that like a thing back then? To have fine nostrils. And this all comes after the author called him not quite handsome. True. She's like, oh, you almost made it. You got great nostrils, though. He's got some fine fine nostrils on that slender manly form that's drawn to its full height. Yeah. Ew. Next line. He walked quickly but quietly towards the door. And as he stood with his hand upon the lock, he said, Mary, I shall take my train for my distant southern home. May God bless both Harry and you. Okay, pause. This is like the worst genre of male manipulator. Like the self-pitying comes over and is like, I don't deserve you. You'd be so much happier with him. Mm-hmm. Why are you torturing me like this? Literally. I also love how he says, I'll take the train for my distant southern home. Like he doesn't want to say where it is. And also, they're both Latter-day Saints. They said they already said both of these guys are Latter-day Saints. And like at this time, there weren't really very many LDS people in the South. Like they wouldn't move to Utah. So how is it? He's not talking about he's not talking about the South. He's just being dramatic about living in like Oh, St. George, maybe or something. Or something. I just get the sense that Southern home saying this to make her feel urgency. Make her feel even worse. Yeah. He's like, Well, I guess I'll go. It's so far away, and I have to take a train, but I'll guess I'll do it. It's so far away in Southern. Back to Saint George. God bless you. Oh no. His hand was upon the door, and in that swift moment he had crossed the portal of life's desire and had relinquished love and hope. But a hand was put out to him, and in a moment he had crossed the room and was kneeling beside the couch. There were no words spoken, only the tender clasp of the arm about her. They moved up to the arm. It's getting spicy. Mm-hmm. They shaking arms now. And the sky gradually lifted and allowed him to look into the brown eyes ere the dark head sank on his shoulder. It isn't sympathy, is it, dear? he asked, putting his hand under her chin and forcing her to look up in his glorified eyes. No, she breathed softly. What is it then, sweetheart? And as she still hesitated, he insisted with a note of masterfulness in his voice, which was so new to him with her, that gentle, firm note which is so thrillingly compulsive to any woman from the man she truly loves. Um, I would just like to say, as a woman, this has never happened to me. This just does never happen to me. I know. I find it so weird. The language of like forcing her to look up and also masterfulness and compulsive, like these words are like just nothing. And they don't like they don't really make any sense. It's so misogynistic. Like there's no I don't know, in my opinion. Like it's it's so unnecessary. This description, this like the way that they described him is just so bizarre to me and also, yeah, very, very uh ripe with misogyny. Yeah. Like they could have described the same thing in different terms, but like they chose masterfully. They could have just been like, oh, he was like assertive or he was confident in what he said, but they're like, he had a masterful tone in the way that he forced her to look up at him. Exactly. It's so weird. I find it especially weird since it's a woman writing. I don't know. This must have been common in writing back then. Yeah, totally. So then he says, What is it, Mary? It is it is just love. Only and again the head sank on his shoulder, but he was still insistent. Only what, sweetheart? Yes, you must satisfy me now. There must be no ifs or only's. Yikes Sophia said before we started recording, she was like, You are gonna hate this whole story. And I was like, Yeah, okay. And sure enough, I hate this. Yeah. I just had to include it because it was so cringe. No, it is, and it's it's it's so funny that it has no moral, and the author says that, and I'm still like, but it's so good. Please, please, please. Yeah, we're gonna leave it up to the readers to come up with the moral. We just gotta put it in. It's too good. Oh yeah. Okay, she continues. Only, well, it's love, and she caught her breath. Only, you know, I didn't know it till now. With supreme content, and with a half sigh, he whispered, Thank God, but oh what a sweetheart I have stolen from Harry. Bitch, you don't care.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

You don't care. He's like, What about Harry?

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Okay, so then some time passes. It was two weeks later, yet the soft September sun mellowed all the rooms of the Graham home with a richer golden tinge, and the curtains swayed softly with the gentle west wind. Mary Graham sat in the lower rocker, swaying softly to and fro while she talked earnestly with her lover's friend and her friend's lover, Joseph Combs. Okay, so when I read this part first, I was like, what the heck? Her lover's friend and her friend lover was going on. But this is Mary, the girl we've been talking about the whole time. But she's talking with Joseph, who is her now fiance's friend. So her fiance's name is Bert. And he's also her friend Rose's lover. So she has a friend named Rose. This is like Rose's boyfriend, Joseph. But Joseph is also friends with her fiance. Okay. Does that make sense? I think so. It's kind of just like a friend group. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And her boyfriend is friends with her friend's boyfriend.

unknown 45:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Does that make sense? Imagine that. It's just like two couples, they're all friends, basically. It doesn't even matter. But this is Joseph. Okay. And he's engaged to Rose or something. Or no, he he's not engaged to her yet. He just likes her. He said it says that he's her lover, but back then I think that just meant crush, basically.

unknown 46:03

No.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Yeah. The young man opposite to her was decidedly handsome. Oop. Not not fringing on handsome, notice that. Wait, decidedly handsome. Joseph is decidedly handsome. But the other guy was almost handsome, but he didn't quite make it. Oh shoot, so her fiance is not quite handsome, but this guy, who's her friend's lover, is handsome, and she's no longer. Again, we're dealing with some ancient dynamics here. Yeah. He was not only good to look upon, he was a likewise gifted with that subtle attraction we call magnetism. He was decidedly a rising young man in the church as well as in the state, but how far he might rise depended on several things. One of these things, he himself keenly realized, was the sort of wife he might acquire. For a wife that should fail to lose her own idle ambitions and the far more wifely and glorious ideal which his lofty aspirations and really noble character will justify would certainly not be a wife for Joseph. Okay, so that's a really long sentence, but I read it several times. I almost passed out reading it. Literally, it's so long. Um, it's saying that in order for his, this is Joseph's, lofty and noble self to be satisfied with a woman, that woman must lose her own idle ambitions. That's what he's saying. Yeah, because if you think about it, a man having aspirations is like it's a really noble and courageous and good thing, but a woman having aspirations is like really disgusting, and you probably shouldn't do that, and you should probably give them up. Um so you can get a husband. And so, yeah, no, totally. Yeah, so you can yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what this is saying. Yeah, so bad, so bad. Therefore, the earnest discussion proceeded. You know, this is Joseph talking. Do you know? I think some girls need to have their minds made up for them. Yeah. And then Rose says, you know, I myself suffered everything before I at last made up my mind, or rather, before Bert made it up for me. So by being manipulative and the worst and trying to have a dramatic exit. I know, like I think that's interesting because to me it seems like she she made up her mind, but it seems like she knows that he actually manipulated her into making up her mind for her. Yeah. And she's like, thinks that that's good. Again, ancient dynamics we're dealing with, y'all. Yeah. The attentive gaze of her companion encouraged her to proceed, for his splendid eyes were glowing with interest as she talked. Ooh, this man likes a good gossip. That's what it's saying here. I like He's like, wait, what do you mean he made up your mind for you? Now, of course, Rose is not exactly like me, but she is a girl anyway. And this is um This is Mary speaking, the original girl. This is Mary speaking, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

Now, of course, Rose is not exactly like me, but she is a girl anyway. And as I say, girls don't know their own minds half of the time. Oh, I'm such a tiny girl, I don't know how to make up my mind, and I have such pretty brown eyes, and I got into a fight with my mom, and so then I was crying on my boyfriend's shoulder, but actually I have two boyfriends, but I don't know which is which, and then one of them manipulated me, and so I just went with what he said because I'm a stupid girl. Yeah, basically. And as I say, girls don't know their own minds half the time. Did Bert tell you the awful time we had? Oh, I tell you it was something terrible.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Yet Bert seemed to have survived it all, the young man answered with his sympathetic smile. Of course he did. Yeah, because he was the one that was causing all the problem. Yeah. Well, anyway, if I were you, I'd just try it. Isn't a dear girl like Rose worth the effort? And in my case, it was a decided success. The young man arose with evident reluctance as he said, I wish I might stay longer. I must go, however. And you think it is a safe experiment for me to make? He added tentatively. Faintheart don't win girls now any quicker than it used to, my friend, said Mary sententiously. Ah, but you know there is as much to lose as there is to gain. You could win any girl if you only tried, declared the girl. And the young man blushed with delicious naivete at her earnest yet inconsistent praise. I need I think this also needs to be locked up. Literally, because this is really weird. Delicious naivete is disgusting. I don't like that. I don't either. Oh, wait, pause. Actually, I did some research on the author, and it said, this was just on her Wikipedia page, it said that she was more open to talk about, um, to talk about like sexual topics than most LDS people at the time. She was like really open about it. So she was like a woke misogynist. Yeah, no, literally, it was yeah, she is a very interesting person, Susie Young Gates. She has a lot of like conflicting traits like that. I mean, she's a polygamous wife, isn't she, of Brigham Young? She was a daughter of polygamy. Oh, I don't know. She was never a polygamous wife because they banned polygamy before she was old enough to be married, but she was a huge supporter of polygamy. Like she stood up for polygamy when other people criticized it. But yeah, anyway. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I can imagine like growing up during this time period in the church would create a lot of conflicting and like contradictory beliefs. Yeah. And you can see that the way that she kind of jumps back and forth throughout this article. So I think it is an interesting look into her mind. And also, I, you know, I make fun of this girl Rose because it's like such a classic trope of like kind of like a clueless girl who's really pretty and really tiny and all this stuff. But at the end of the day, like I'm really making fun of these misogynistic dynamics um and how they paint women in literature. So interesting, interesting, interesting. And she was probably following literature trends of her time. But also, she was um a huge supporter of women's suffrage, too. So that's another women's suffrage. Yes, letting women have the right to vote. She was like a really big activist in that. So yeah, lots of interesting, conflicting things. Interesting. All right, I'm going to continue reading this part. After the young man blushed with delicious naivete at her earnest yet inconsistent praise. However, the staid and sober young man found his mind continually dwelling on the suggestions made to him, and no work nor study could drive from his mind the delicious po sorry, let me take a heat before I read that. Let me move my brain so I make sure I'm reading these words properly. So gross. Just disgusting. Written by a woman for some reason. Yeah. With unusual care, he prepared himself for an evening with his best girl and his last girl. Rose met him at her own hall door and with her charming chatter beguiled his mind while she divested him of his hat and umbrella.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

How awfully dear of you to come away out here and help me pass this miserable rainy evening. Her delicate form was arrayed in a shining pink satin dress, and a priceless bertha of Duchess Lace veiled her beautiful neck while the heavily ringed fingers fluttered here and there.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

My Lady Rose was a lovely girl with soft, tender features and rather thin scarlet lips which seemed made for kisses. Y'all better describe me like that after I die. That's so funny. With the instinctive grace of a kitten, she curled up in a big chair and leaned her brown head against its brilliant cushions, unaware, no doubt, of the seductive picture she made. I think she wasn't unaware. I don't think so either. I don't think so either. Conversation never lagged when brilliant Rose was near, and so the weather, politics, and even ethics in a very broad way were rounded up, and each seemed a poem when its exposition rippled away from the dewy mouth of the little lady. Joseph sat entranced. His compelling eyes rested with fervor on the sweet face near him, and a decided, responsive thrill trickled all over the sensitive, nervous organism of my lady Rose. Ahully cringe. That is gonna push my dinner back by an hour. I lost my appetite. So sorry. Yeah, you oh sorry, the shock. Oh no. There was a suppressed air of excitement about her usually calm admirer, and she wondered idly whether Joseph was going into active politics or the insurance business. She's like, hmm, how much money is he gonna make, though? Yeah. With gentle tact, she drew him first to one subject and then to another. Her mother appeared at the door and asked Rose if she would go up to her sixth father a moment. Of course, Mama dear, is Papa worse? No, dear, he only wants you to write a note for him. I have lost my glasses. With a parting excuse and a laughing commendation of her precious mama to the tender services of Joseph in her absence, the slender form trailed out of the parlor, and one could hear the very high and peggy heels clatter daintily up the stairs as their wearer tripped up to do her father's bidding.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Oh no, my feet are so tiny. Oh no, my feet are so tiny. They're making a little sound on the stails. I'm gonna fly away because I'm so tiny. Ooh, I'm so slender and tiny and wearing pee. I'm going to help my dad write a note because he can't see. I'm so nice. I'm such a good daughter. I'm so teeny tiny and also cunning.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

Oh my god. That's why I like Rose. Yeah. You'll like her more at the end. Thank God. This does this have a redemption arc to it or something? Sort of. The story itself. Not the kind of thing. Kind of the story itself. Yeah. Rose is her father's pet, you know, said the good mother after her daughter had disappeared. She is worthy of that, and indeed all of the honor, gallantly remarked Joseph. After some lively chat in which Miss Rose naturally and conclusively formed the dominating feature, the young lady herself fluttered downstairs, and with her soft, purring sweep she embraced her mother's comely shoulders. What the Anyway, and with loving pats conveyed her tenderly and skillfully to the foot of the stairs, all unconscious, no doubt, of the mingled delight and desire which the sight of her filial caresses aroused in the breast of Joseph. This part is so weird, because she's like Is he getting like aroused turned on by her taking care of her mom? Hugging her mom? Yeah. Ew. Ew. Yeah, it's so bad. It's so weird. But her content warning on this story. We might actually have to. Like she's she's just coming down the stairs, patting her mom and like giving her a hug and saying, like, thanks, mom, or whatever. I don't know. And he's like, wow, she's such a good daughter. And that like turns it on. Ew. Ew. So weird. And then he says, Such a good daughter must of necessity make an excellent wife. He said with great earnestness. Yeah, like same thing being a daughter and a wife. Like you're just serving people. So same thing. Oh, wait, he said that out loud. Oh shoot. Okay, sorry. Yeah, he said it to her mom. Said it out loud. Oh my gosh. Yes. So then the mom says No, this is the daughter. Do you think so? This is the daughter. Yeah. Ooh. Ooh. Okay. Do you think so? Cooed her ladyship as she once more settled herself down to luxurious content. That's so sweet of you to say so, but you know, husbands are not always as nice as parents, especially my darling daddy and mummy. She protested naughtily. Why does she have to say that naughtily? Just because she's naughty to like suggest that a husband could Oh, might not always be as nice. Not take care of her. Oh interesting. I think she's like flirting. She's like, well, not all husbands are nice, you know. Yeah. Are you gonna be nice? Uh, okay. Can you read the next one too? I don't want to read it. Oh. Okay. Oh no!

unknown 58:39

All right.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

Everyone, let's just take a deep breath before we read this part. Everyone, all of our listeners, let's take a deep inhale. Exhale. Here was Joseph's chance. With a slight hesitation, he began his argument.

SPEAKER_00 58:59

Puss curled up cozily as it proceeded, and her sparkling eyes gave evidence of the intense interest this conversation was causing. Certainly this was a very new departure.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

How handsome he looked as his tall, graceful figure bent toward her with Joseph's own inimitable manner. With what eloquence did he plead his case? The flower-like face so near him got upon his nerves, so to speak, and caused him to throw all his old-time caution into the winds. For the first time in his life, Joseph had forgotten himself and had loosened the tension of his magnificent self-control. His magnificent self-control. But now a man with self-control? Magnificent. But now he is missing it for the first time. What's going to happen? Wow. Now he is pleading the cause of the noble Sylvester, his rival, yet his lifelong friend. So Sylvester is like the other guy that's trying to get with Rose. So it's Sylvester versus Joseph. And now Joseph, because he's following the advice from Mary, is saying, like, oh, Sylvester is so great. So he's trying to manipulate her by saying, like, Sylvester, the other guy, is so great, just like how Bert did. Because with Bert it worked and he got the girl. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. This is crazy. I know. So now he's pleading the cause of the noble Sylvester, his rival yet his lifelong friend. With fervor, he paints his splendid record and points with pride to the young genius in whose favor he is about to abdicate to dispossess if he can. So he's trying to do what Bert did. Say that Rose's other bow, Sylvester, is so great, and they'll be great together, blah blah blah. And he's hoping that when he turns to leave, Rose will say, Stop, and like, actually, I love you, not Sylvester, just like what happened with Mary. Dang, this is so crazy. Yeah, it's just like male manipulation 101. Yeah, and they're like teaching each other how to do it. Yeah. The misty eyes of the young lady opposite gleam in response to his generous portrayal, and her sweet lips tremble with suppressed emotion. With one grand gesture, Joseph solemnly declared that the hour, nay, the moment, had come in which her fateful decision must be made. My rose of Jessamine breath, he quoted beautifully from the East Indian love song, you must choose now between us. Can you decide? Nay, can you refuse to decide? Oh no, softly breathed the dainty vision beside him. I cannot refuse to decide. I am ready. Love? And you decide? You choose? Oh yes, I have quite decided. I shall marry Sylvester if I ever really marry anyone, you know.

unknown 1:01:48

Period!

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

That's the end. The end. Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Maybe maybe I have a little bit of a changed perspective on this. Yeah, she showed him. She did. She did not. She was not swayed by that manipulation. No. Not that I blame anyone who would have been because good gravy. What was all that? Mm-hmm. If I ever really marry anyone, you know. Period. Yeah. She's like, yeah, I think I'll marry Sylvester. If I ever marry anyone. And he's like, no, my manipulation didn't work. Oh, she ate. She really, really did. So that's the end of that tale. So now I'm wondering like what the author meant by that. She said there was no moral and that it was just something that happened in real life. I wonder if that's true or not. And also, what did she mean by writing this? Like, was she trying to like show men that like you shouldn't manipulate? Or was she just saying sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't? Because it worked with other girls. But anyway, the readers actually did respond to the question about what the moral is. Oh, in the next in the issue of the next month, the improvement era posted or posted the improvement era included the morals that people had written in about this story. The morals that people proposed. So you can read those. Okay. So from the next issue, it says replying to the request to give the moral of the story bearing the above title in the March era, a large number of young men have forwarded their answers. Out of the number, we have selected the following which are the samples of best received. Here's the first one. As the stars differ from each other in size and brilliance, so differ people from each other in temperament, fancies, and tastes. All people cannot be taught and led in the same way. Some are strong-willed, others mild. In governing them, we must deal accordingly. That's from Sylvanus Iverson. I would never believe anything a man named Sylvanus said. So Yeah, his is kind of long-winded and philosophical. Also, I don't like how he said in governing them, like in governing people. Yeah. He's like, we gotta keep in mind when governing people, they're all different, so we have to manipulate them in different ways. Exactly. You gotta you gotta have a new tactic because clearly that last guy's tactic flopped because that girl was different. So you gotta manipulate everyone in your life differently. Yeah, so he did not eat with that one. Next moral is solve your own problems rather than copy entirely from the slate of your neighbor. That one kind of ate That was from Edmund W. Carbine. Yeah, so don't get your ideas from other people's fix your own problems. He kind of served with that one. Yeah. All right. Aaron Quist says some girls have to have their minds made up for them, some don't. Okay. Well, I don't think anyone has to have their mind made up for them. Um, but okay. That's like the the clearest, like most obvious moral of the story, if you want to take one. Like some people are indecisive and some people aren't. Yeah, there you go. Also, don't be a male manipulator. That's the more important moral of the story. Yeah. In male. And I don't think that anyone has to have their mind made up for them. Definitely not. Sophia, what is your personal moral taken from this story? Ooh, that is a hard one. I mean, yeah, I would say don't be a male manipulator. Don't manipulate people, communicate clearly. It's hard because, like, the social norms were so different back then. Nowadays, a woman wouldn't be in this situation in the first place, hopefully. Because nowadays you date someone one-on-one for a long time, and then you discuss getting married with them, and then decide if you're gonna get married, get engaged, get married. But back then it was like she was still getting to know these two guys, and they were just gonna go ahead and get married. Like she had to pick one of them to get married to, even though she didn't know either of them well enough to be dating. Them for very long, or like they weren't allowed to date one-on-one for a long period of time before getting married. It's like they just had to choose in the early stages okay, this is the guy I'm gonna marry. So it's hard for me to come up with a moral that's applicable to today because yeah, I don't think anyone would be in this situation, and I think it's unfortunate that they were in that situation back then as well. Yeah. Because I think you really should get to know someone really well. Yeah, hopefully no one's in this situation today. But I like don't manipulate people. Yeah, I feel like that's my main moral. Don't manipulate people and also don't be a mom like that. Yeah, I did not love the mom character. Yeah, I didn't Barry's mom where she was like, you're stringing along both of these boys, make up your mind, and the boys are actually like the ones that are manipulating her. Yeah, I feel. Yeah, the mom was trying to force her into a decision when maybe she wasn't ready to make one. The boys were also trying to force her into a decision, and the mom was just being rude. She's like, I don't understand the mom's take either when she says, back in our day, we just went out with a guy and got married. Like basically, the first guy that came along. Yeah, she's like, we didn't have all these notions of deciding which one. Like, but then she's also proud of her daughter for attracting multiple suitors. Yeah. There's like that undertone. So she's like so proud of her daughter because her daughter's pretty and attracting these men.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

But then she's also like, back in my day, we just got married quick and had babies. By the way, the babies were way better than the ones they're making today.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:53

Which what does that mean? I do not understand it. It makes no sense. When I was a boy, we didn't have TV. Yes. And if you've been listening to all of our episodes, you will understand that reference now. Yeah. When I was a girl, we didn't have multiple bow. When I was a girl, we didn't have consent.

unknown 1:08:21

Literally.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:21

Sorry, that's kind of dark. Like, oh yeah. So bad. Well, we're not gonna leave you on the downer note of lack of consent during early dating in the church. We are gonna leave you on a note of a little silly joke. Okay, so we're going back to the in a lighter mood section. This is from the improvement era, June 1908. The child of strict parents, whose greatest joy had hitherto been the weekly prayer meeting, was taken once to a circus by his nurse. When he came home, oh mummy, he exclaimed, if you once went to a circus, you'd never go to a prayer meeting again in all your life. He's like, Why are you going to church when there's a circus again? Because he thought they were going to prayer for or to yeah, weekly prayer meeting for like entertainment. Because that's the only form of entertainment he knew. So he goes to a circus and he's like, What the heck? Why are we going to prayer meeting when the circus exists, you guys? He's like, This is sick. Yeah. Mom, you have to try it. So true. Mom, you gotta see this. You gotta see this. You'll never go to church again. They got dudes wearing polka dot bloomers. You gotta go. Yeah, really funny. Anyway, so that is our episode today. Sorry if it got a little dark at times, but uh yeah, it was it was just so enhanced. You can't, yeah, and you really can't, like when you're looking into church history, when you're looking into, I mean, in my opinion, really anything, you can't have it all one way. There's gonna be some tension mixed in with the funnies, there's gonna be some sadness, especially when you're looking at things throughout history. And in my opinion, especially when you look at Mormon history. So thank you all for listening and joining us for the ride. We hope that you enjoyed it. We hope you had a laugh amidst the tears. That makes it sound so much worse than I think it was. But thank you all so much for listening. We appreciate you. Our DMs are always open. Send us any funnies that you find in church history. If you have any episode ideas too, we love to hear them. If there's anything specific that you'd like to hear about or have observed in Mormon culture that you want someone to look into, we are your girls. Thank you so much for being here today. Yes, thank you so much for joining, and we will see you next time on Loud Laughter. Bye.